Curse

illidan009 · Mar 09, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

So is it going to kill shit or stand there spamming [draw conditions]? wtf leave you heroes to remove conditions give this moar dommages and moar [save yourselves].

Lol, you're the best.

ON TOPIC (if there is such a thing in this thread): Draw conditions might not be a bad idea, but I still don't see a use for it in pve...your monks should be able to take care of conditions imo :/

MegaVolti · Mar 09, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You said it is impossible to critical for 86. He criticals for 86. Happy?

I bet you will rant and rave and protest that this is out of your point. Doesn't matter. You claimed it is impossible to critical for 86. You then claimed that 86 is sheer imagination. You even came up with your own calculation saying you should crit for 60+, not 86, and finally you proceeded to call Darkside's test 'fiction'. He then provided more numbers proving you critical for 86, making him right and you wrong. End of story. Darkside wins this argument. You can keep protesting if you want, but the way you botched up something so basic kind of ruins your credibility.

WHO CARES ABOUT A F***** CRITICAL?

His calculation is fictional and doesn't matter, not because of the value of the critical but BECAUSE HE ASSUMED CRITICAL STRIKES AND AL60 ALL THE TIME.
Is that so hard to understand? Even if he is able to critical for 500 damage it still doesn't change the fact that assuming criticals all the time and assuming only AL 60 enemies doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

And therefor his calculation is fiction and completely irrelevant.

Just so you really understand it: He DERAILED the argument by posting some calculation that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INITIAL PROBLEM.
The point is: For a Dervish, is Asuran Scan or an additional attack skill better?
His calculation has nothing to do with this problem.

Darkside · Mar 09, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

WHO CARES ABOUT A F***** CRITICAL?

His calculation is fictional and doesn't matter, not because of the value of the critical but BECAUSE HE ASSUMED CRITICAL STRIKES AND AL60 ALL THE TIME.
Is that so hard to understand? Even if he is able to critical for 500 damage it still doesn't change the fact that assuming criticals all the time and assuming only AL 60 enemies doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

And therefor his calculation is fiction and completely irrelevant.

Just so you really understand it: He DERAILED the argument by posting some calculation that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INITIAL PROBLEM.
The point is: For a Dervish, is Asuran Scan or an additional attack skill better?
His calculation has nothing to do with this problem.

First of all could everyone stop calling me HE? Second, my numbers are not FICTION for them to be fiction I would have to have invented them. Of course it wouldn't matter what kinda evidence I post you would just claim fiction either way, because that seems to be your only defense. Third, I did not DERAIL the argument by posting that damage table. I was backing up my initial post with proof in support of my argument unlike you. So the way I see it you are left with two choices; post something worth while supporting your argument or shut up.

MegaVolti · Mar 10, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

First of all could everyone stop calling me HE? Second, my numbers are not FICTION for them to be fiction I would have to have invented them. Of course it wouldn't matter what kinda evidence I post you would just claim fiction either way, because that seems to be your only defense. Third, I did not DERAIL the argument by posting that damage table. I was backing up my initial post with proof in support of my argument unlike you. So the way I see it you are left with two choices; post something worth while supporting your argument or shut up.

No you did not back up your argument in any way because your assumptions are wrong.
A calculation based on wrong assumptions does not prove anything.
Your assumption that you only face AR 60 targets and get a critical with every single attack is obviously wrong.

So I do not have to provide anything here. You provided a calculation based on wrong assumptions. If you want to be taken seriously you have to correct your calculation to match realistic (meaning: common in HM) conditions.

That would be: About 10% to 15% critical strikes (20% by the Scythe Mastery but reduced because of the higher enemy level) and average AR of about 90-95 (assuming mlvl 28, thats 60+24=84 for soft targets and 94 / 104 for hard targets, I don't know how common enemy armor buffing abilities are, they also should be considered).
You also have to take into account that a scythe doesn't always hit only one target. If you are good with positioning it probably makes sense to assume about 1.5 to 2 targets hit with every attack on average. Only one target gets the benefit of Asuran Scan, which also factors into the result (quite a lot).

GourangaPizza · Mar 12, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Why does all Melandru Avatar users like slot in a transfer conditions skills? Its weird and my paragon hero does a better job of removing conditions with Cautery Signet. At least slot in an Attacker's Insight to offset some energy shortages.

MagicalHobo · Mar 12, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

Why does all Melandru Avatar users like slot in a transfer conditions skills? Its weird and my paragon hero does a better job of removing conditions with Cautery Signet. At least slot in an Attacker's Insight to offset some energy shortages.

Draw Conditions is a 5e, quarter-second cast, two second recharge skill that takes advantage of the condition immunity Melandru has to offer. This allows for more flexibility in the builds of other members, and helps lift some stress off the Monks. In addition, because of the AoE advantage of the scythe, good positioning allows for the Dervish to quickly regain that 5e within moments.

iVendetta · Mar 12, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicalHobo

Draw Conditions is a 5e, quarter-second cast, two second recharge skill that takes advantage of the condition immunity Melandru has to offer. This allows for more flexibility in the builds of other members, and helps lift some stress off the Monks. In addition, because of the AoE advantage of the scythe, good positioning allows for the Dervish to quickly regain that 5e within moments.

In addition, it is also a little bonus self-heal.

Improvavel · Mar 13, 2009, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Yah and start c spacing because you will have a negative energy pool.

Ok this was from some time ago, but you don't know shit about what you are talking!

It doesn't matter if you have a negative energy pool or not with attacker's insight. Again, it doesn't matter what amount of energy you have with attacker's insight.

The attack skills will cost 0 (or 1 energy if it is a 10 energy attack skill at 4 wind prayers).

Then, after your 2 attacks FOR FREE, attacker's insight end giving you back 4 energy if you have at least 12 mysticism.

And that is disregarding zealous or not.

Darkside · Mar 13, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Ok this was from some time ago, but you don't know shit about what you are talking!

It doesn't matter if you have a negative energy pool or not with attacker's insight. Again, it doesn't matter what amount of energy you have with attacker's insight.

The attack skills will cost 0 (or 1 energy if it is a 10 energy attack skill at 4 wind prayers).

Then, after your 2 attacks FOR FREE, attacker's insight end giving you back 4 energy if you have at least 12 mysticism.

And that is disregarding zealous or not.

Yes IF you have enough energy to use attacker's insight you can pull off two attacks. I never disagreed with that. Fact still remains that when using a Melandru build you have to worry about energy far more then probably any other dervish build. What if all your enchantments are down and you need to put up your avatar. You might have enough energy to put up the Avatar and attacker's insight but don't have enough for Aura of Holy Might and/or Heart of Fury (or some other key enchantment) your dps could suffer considerably when that happens. Add in a little e-denial and you end up in a bad place. Is it bad to use Avatar of Melandru? No I never said that...but it's my personal opinion that in MOST situations you're better off using a Wounding Strike build. It's just a much simpler build to utilize and much easier to maintain high dps.

Quote:

No you did not back up your argument in any way because your assumptions are wrong.
A calculation based on wrong assumptions does not prove anything.
Your assumption that you only face AR 60 targets and get a critical with every single attack is obviously wrong.

*sigh* The reason I used 60 AR target was because all those test numbers were taken from a thread I posted a couple months ago showing the highest possible damage a dervish could do. Since the object of those tests was to see the maximum possible damage it made sense to use the 60 AR targets.

Anyway, I wasn't assuming every single attack was going to be a critical. How many times do I need to type that? I'm just showing the damage potential that is there when using Asura Scan in combination with Aura of Holy Might. I'm not gonna go spend an hour testing for new damage numbers against a higher AR target just for you.

Quote:

So I do not have to provide anything here. You provided a calculation based on wrong assumptions. If you want to be taken seriously you have to correct your calculation to match realistic (meaning: common in HM) conditions.

Not completely unrealistic. One of my necro heroes brings along cracked armor thus lowering the targets AR. I often see huge numbers even in HM. Of course that is completely dependent on what heroes you bring and what skills are on their bars. Just saying the damage table is not irrelevant even in HM.

Quote:

That would be: About 10% to 15% critical strikes (20% by the Scythe Mastery but reduced because of the higher enemy level) and average AR of about 90-95 (assuming mlvl 28, thats 60+24=84 for soft targets and 94 / 104 for hard targets, I don't know how common enemy armor buffing abilities are, they also should be considered).
You also have to take into account that a scythe doesn't always hit only one target. If you are good with positioning it probably makes sense to assume about 1.5 to 2 targets hit with every attack on average. Only one target gets the benefit of Asuran Scan, which also factors into the result (quite a lot).

The scythe positioning argument is one I see a lot and I do agree partially. In theory it's great but in practice it doesn't always happen. Particularly in HM where monsters have above average speed. The melee members of a mob are easy to group together but the nukers tent to hang back and in those cases you really need to take them out first before they wipe your group with AOE. This is where Asura Scan really shines. You can take out a key target very quickly.

MegaVolti · Mar 14, 2009, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

The scythe positioning argument is one I see a lot and I do agree partially. In theory it's great but in practice it doesn't always happen. Particularly in HM where monsters have above average speed. The melee members of a mob are easy to group together but the nukers tent to hang back and in those cases you really need to take them out first before they wipe your group with AOE. This is where Asura Scan really shines. You can take out a key target very quickly.

That's why I wrote that an average of 1.5 to 2 targets per hit is a reasonable assumption. 3 just doesn't always happen but 1.5 (on average) isn't all that hard.

The problem with your calculation is that it simply has nothing to do with the problem. We were arguing about scan vs bringing an additional attack skill. I said the attack skill will be more useful, you said the scan is better.
Max damage calculations don't have anything to do with that. Only average damage calculations (DPS) can provide a final answer.
I haven't run the exact numbers but judging from a rough estimate I concluded that the attack skill will provide more damage, assuming a common hard mode environment. The problem with scan in HM is that without attack skills it will only amplify the auto attack damage, which is greatly reduced by HM armor. That's why the attack skills are so essential

Bobby2 · Mar 14, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

The problem with scan in HM is that without attack skills it will only amplify the auto attack damage, which is greatly reduced by HM armor. That's why the attack skills are so essential

So I heard you can have attack skills AND Scan...

Improvavel · Mar 15, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Yes IF you have enough energy to use attacker's insight you can pull off two attacks. I never disagreed with that. Fact still remains that when using a Melandru build you have to worry about energy far more then probably any other dervish build. What if all your enchantments are down and you need to put up your avatar. You might have enough energy to put up the Avatar and attacker's insight but don't have enough for Aura of Holy Might and/or Heart of Fury (or some other key enchantment) your dps could suffer considerably when that happens. Add in a little e-denial and you end up in a bad place. Is it bad to use Avatar of Melandru? No I never said that...but it's my personal opinion that in MOST situations you're better off using a Wounding Strike build. It's just a much simpler build to utilize and much easier to maintain high dps.

What if you are blind? What if the enemy hex you with spirit shackles? What if the enemy weakens you? What if...

It is a trade. Zealous weapon, attackers insight and clever use of staff and eternal aura to get twice as much from attackers insight will reduce the energy problems to a minimum.

Sure some places will be harder than others.

What you gain though, is a more resilient character that is also immune to conditions.

What you trade off is some dps and instead of being able to deep wound every 3 seconds, you can deep wound only every 6 seconds but with more damage attached. Of course the WS dervish die easier.

I find the pros on Avatar of melandru defeat its cons.

And frankly, if you need WS, an assassin is a lot better in that slot.

Darkside · Mar 15, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

What if you are blind? What if the enemy hex you with spirit shackles? What if the enemy weakens you? What if...

Yes what if indeed...there are what if's for every situation and skill in the game. I could argue that Dwayna is the best avatar because IF you get hexed with blurred vision or reckless haste you can't hit the side of a barn. Just because Avatar of Dwayna is a counter for those two hex's doesn't make it the best elite skill choice ALL the time. BUT it's probably a good choice in hex heavy areas. Same can be said about AoM unless you are going to encounter mass conditions that will overwhelm the monks in your party there isn't a need to be immune to them.

Quote:

It is a trade. Zealous weapon, attackers insight and clever use of staff and eternal aura to get twice as much from attackers insight will reduce the energy problems to a minimum.

Sure some places will be harder than others.

Yes all that is wonderful but doesn't change the fact that it's a lot more work to run a Melandru build and be effective then it is a WS build. Not to mention dps wise a AoM build probably won't be able to keep up.

Quote:

What you gain though, is a more resilient character that is also immune to conditions.

I find the pros on Avatar of melandru defeat its cons.

And frankly, if you need WS, an assassin is a lot better in that slot.

I stand by my original statement in most situations you are not going to encounter mass conditions that your monk wont be able to deal with. Obviously, if you enter an area where nasty conditions are reapplied every 2 seconds then yes Melandru is the way to go. As for that last line... well it's not really worth commenting on.

WyrdaPT · Mar 15, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Folks, you are supposed to use 5 radiant insignias plus a few attunement insignias and a "I Have The Power" Scythe to spam those skills...

Pretty basic the conjunction between Scan and AoHM..

5/10

Improvavel · Mar 16, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkside

Yes all that is wonderful but doesn't change the fact that it's a lot more work to run a Melandru build and be effective then it is a WS build. Not to mention dps wise a AoM build probably won't be able to keep up.

Being easier or harder isn't an argument about efficiency.

It might take some time to get used to, but I don't recall the last time I was unable to keep mels avatar up. A Staff can have 20 energy, a weapon and focus will have +17.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyrdaPT

Folks, you are supposed to use 5 radiant insignias plus a few attunement insignias and a "I Have The Power" Scythe to spam those skills...

Never use radiants on a dervish. (Bem se vê que és tuga)

Darkside · Mar 16, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Being easier or harder isn't an argument about efficiency.

It might take some time to get used to, but I don't recall the last time I was unable to keep mels avatar up. A Staff can have 20 energy, a weapon and focus will have +17.

Never use radiants on a dervish. (Bem se vê que és tuga)

Do you have reading comprehension issues? I agreed that with an energy set on weapon switch that you could most likely put up AoM at any time. What I did say was that if you are low on energy even if you switch to an energy set you might have trouble putting up key enchantments along with the Avatar and thus your dps would suffer. WS builds on the other hand have nothing that is heavy on the energy pool making it more efficient at killing things since you can continuously spam attack skills on recharge.

My point being dps wise Melandru isn't the best choice.

Grim Lich · Mar 29, 2009, 07:32 PM // 19:32

I lol'd at this topic.

But seriously, when it comes to damage and Dervishes I use:

[Avatar of Lyssa][radiant scythe][Victorious sweep] + (if using enchants) [Heart of Fury][Mystic Sweep] or (if no enchants) [Pious Fury][Pious Assault]

(Conjure weps optional)

This is one D/ build I have to say an A/ could not do better. Although I have seen D/A using AoL with daggers.

Bof · Apr 02, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

From the first build posted here I would suggest taking out eternal aura for another PvE only skill like pain inverter or Vanguard Assassin. Also I would replace AoM with something different. Attacker's Insight has 15 second recharge which is more than the weakness you are preventing. As the post said you are a frontliner... kill stuff. I wouldn't worry about condition removal with yourself or the party.

Darkside · Apr 04, 2009, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bof

From the first build posted here I would suggest taking out eternal aura for another PvE only skill like pain inverter or Vanguard Assassin.

That doesn't make any sense at all. When you use an Avatar you always bring Eternal Aura for obvious reasons.

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 05, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Summery of thread

1. OP build sucks
2. MINE IS BETTER
3.????
4.Fail

But seriously, unless you are in something like RA, Melandru's + Draw conditions is ridiculously stupid. You are not support. You are a melee character wielding one the strongest weapons available. Do damage or roll a different character. period.